In this companion episode, hosts Autumn Brown and Nicole Diroff sit down to reflect on the deep, ancestral wisdom shared by Zen Master Norma Wong in our previous episode. How do we move from the "terrifying" experience of systemic collapse into a place of collective resilience? Autumn and Nicole dive into the somatic and spiritual shifts required to live and lead in this time-place of collapse.

Notable Quote:

"If we are tapped into source and source reveals this great grand interconnectedness, there starts to surface these things that compel us... my experience says open yourself to it." — Nicole Diroff

Episode Summary: Following Autumn's conversation with Norma Wong, Nicole and Autumn process the heavy yet hopeful themes of "source ways," the breakdown of Western "individualism," and the necessity of accompaniment. Nicole shares a vulnerable story of navigating a moment of crisis, illustrating how our nervous systems respond to collapse and how we can find our way back to resonance through collective "beingness" rather than just "doingness."

Key Themes and Conversations:

• Processing the "Slipstream": Nicole and Autumn discuss the somatic experience of living through the "polycrisis" and the importance of recognizing our own nervous system's response to systemic duress.
• Breaking the Construct of Individualism: A reflection on how Western "hyper-individualism" creates a sense of isolation during crisis and the invitation to return to a more foundational "source way" of being.
• Accompaniment in Action: Nicole shares a powerful personal narrative about witnessing a high-stress incident and how it served as a microcosm for the larger systemic "breakdowns" we are all witnessing.
• Source vs. Strategy: Discussing why spiritual leadership requires being "tapped into source" before jumping into strategy, allowing our actions to be guided by a deep sense of interconnectedness.

Next Steps & Practice:

• Somatic Check-In: When you feel the "panic" of collapse—whether in a personal crisis or global news—take a moment to notice where that feeling lives in your body. Practice the "Breath of Resonance" discussed in Episode 5.
• Identify Your "Source Way": Reflect on the practices that help you feel connected to the whole of life. Is it singing? Storytelling? Silence? Find one way to prioritize that "beingness" this week.
• Practice Radical Presence: Look for a moment this week where you can offer presence rather than a solution. How does it change the energy of the interaction when the relationship is the first response?

People and Resources Mentioned:

• Norma Wong, Zen Master and teacher.
• Who We Are Becoming Matters by Norma Wong (North Atlantic Books).
• The BTS Center

Connect With Us: What stirred for you in this conversation? We love to hear your voices and reflections.

• Email: podcast@thebtscenter.org
• Voice Message: 207-200-6986
• Video: Watch full-length video episodes and find bonus material on The BTS Center’s YouTube channel.
• Website: Visit www.climatechangedpodcast.org for transcripts and discussion guides.

Blessing: May you be fed, may you be watered. May you grow towards the sun. Feel held in love, worthy of love.

Coming Up Next: Join us next week for a conversation with Katie Mears as we explore how we communicate risk and build collective solutions in a changing world.

In a time of "polycrisis" and systemic collapse, it is easy to feel unmoored by the intensity of the "slipstream". In this episode, Autumn Brown sits down with Zen Master and Native Hawaiian teacher Norma Wong to explore a different way of being. Together, they discuss the move from individual leadership to collective accompaniment, the importance of reconnecting to our "source ways," and how imagining a future is not a theoretical exercise but the necessary work of the present moment.

Grounding Practice

To help us settle into the space of this conversation, we begin with a musical grounding from Pax Ressler, a queer, non-binary artist, composer, and friend of The BTS Center. Their song, "Woven Together," is a sonic invitation to feel into the very interconnectedness—the kakou—that Norma Wong describes.

• The Practice: As you listen, allow the music to help you transition from the frantic "doingness" of your day into a state of presence. Let the lyrics remind you that we are part of a larger fabric of life, heart, and mind, woven into the future we are currently creating.

Key Themes and Conversations:

• Beyond Individual Leadership: Moving from the Western construct of the singular leader to kakou—an accumulated, experiential way of being in tangible cohesion with all beings.
• Accompaniment as a Natural State: Recognizing that our time is brief and shifting our daily behavior toward being a good guest and steward of the universe.
• The Slipstream and Systems Collapse: Understanding that in a "polycrisis," systems can only react rather than respond, necessitating a shift toward reconstituting human beingness at the community level.
• The "Source Way" vs. The "Cultural Way": Distinguishing between the cultural practices we can relearn and the deeper "source way" of being that ties us to all of indigeneity and to the earth itself.
• Imagination as Practical Work: Using storytelling and visioning to immediately implement the systems we will need, such as native plant nurseries for rebuilding after a disaster.
• Breathing as Community Practice: A grounding exercise in resonance and nervous system regulation.

Next Steps & Practice:

• The 80-10-10 Rule: Inspired by Sherri Mitchell's work, consider how you distribute your energy. Invest 10% in looking at what needs to change, 10% in holding back the tide of harm, and the final 80% in creating a reality that offers compassion, safety, equality, and sustainability for all.
• Practice Accompaniment: Identify a person or group in your community who needs presence rather than advice. Whether it is a family facing economic hardship or someone navigating a recent loss, let the relationship be the first response and let that connection guide what you do next.
• Ancestral Legacy: Reflect on what you are doing today that serves the "time beyond the collapse." How are you practicing being a good ancestor right now?

People and Resources Mentioned:

• Norma Wong, Zen Master, teacher, and author.
• Who We Are Becoming Matters by Norma Wong (North Atlantic Books, released Feb 2026).
• Pax Ressler, musician and composer of the song "Woven Together" featured in this episode.
• Sherri Mitchell, indigenous leader and attorney (referenced in the song and next steps).

Guest Bio: Norma Ryuko Kaweloku Wong Roshi is a Native Hawaiian and Haka Zen teacher. She serves as the Abbot of Enko Inn, an independent branch temple of Daihonzen Chozenji. An 86th-generation Zen Master, she has spent over 40 years applying Zen and indigenous values to transformational change. Her career has spanned community work, the Hawaii state legislature, and policy strategy, including leading negotiations over Native Hawaiian land and water rights . Today, she brings grounded wisdom to global ecological and spiritual crises.

Connect With Us:

We would love to hear what reflections are surfacing for you.

• Email: podcast@thebtscenter.org
• Voice Message: 207-200-6986
• Video: Find full-length video episodes and bonus clips on The BTS Center’s YouTube channel.

Blessing: May you be fed, may you be watered. May you grow towards the sun. Feel held in love, worthy of love.

Hosts Nicole Diroff and Autumn Brown reflect on Autumn’s profound conversation with climate chaplain Rabbi Ora Nitkin-Kaner. They explore why radical honesty about our ecological reality is not an act of despair, but the foundation of true hope and agency.

As we navigate a world that feels increasingly like an "extended apocalypse," Nicole and Autumn discuss the "ministry of presence"—the practice of sitting with grief rather than trying to fix it. Their conversation alights on parenting, martial arts, and caring for one another in a world hungry for freedoms. They also dive into the biological "fight or flight" responses triggered by the climate crisis and how we can look to our ancestors and the "more-than-human" world for models of resilience and survival.

• Tending, Mending, Befriending: Shifting away from urgency-based "yelling" toward spiritual care that acknowledges deep overwhelm .
• The More Than Human World: Exploring our identity as one species among millions and learning survival strategies from the ecological world.
• The Sacred Act of Naming: How being honest about our grief and naming the "unknowable" creates a path to communion and hope .
• Practicing Freedom: Insights from Autumn’s martial arts practice on how discipline and collaboration create the capacity for spontaneity and choice .
• Agency in Care: Reclaiming our biological and spiritual drive to both give and receive care as a fundamental tool for resilience .

Inspired by the conversation, Autumn and Nicole invite you to engage in these small acts of spiritual care this week:

• Name Your Emotion: Pause long enough to name one specific emotion that climate change brings up for you.
• Share Your Feeling: Take that named emotion and share it with someone you trust.
• Risk Honesty: Find a setting to let others know you are concerned—whether by leading a prayer in your faith community or by writing a letter to your local paper.
• Mini-Rituals: Create a simple line of acknowledgment or a "closing homily" during a daily task or gathering to ground your actions in a larger purpose.
• Connect with Us: Share your own message, reflections, or sparking ideas by emailing podcast@thebtscenter.org or leaving a voice message at 207-200-6986.

• Rabbi Ora Nitkin-Kaner: Climate change chaplain and guest from the previous episode. https://www.exploringapocalypse.com/
• David Abram: American ecologist and philosopher who coined the term "more than human world". https://www.davidabram.org/
• Robin Wall Kimmerer: Author noted for the essay comparing monoculture corn to "enslavement". https://www.robinwallkimmerer.com/
• Lament with Earth: A BTS Center program involving online gatherings for seasonal naming and grieving. https://thebtscenter.org/lament-with-earth-2025-2026/
• The Many: Liturgists and musicians who collaborated on the Lament with Earth offerings. https://www.themanyarehere.com/
• Frances Weller: Author and upcoming guest mentioned in relation to "longing for reciprocity." https://www.francisweller.net/
• How to Survive the End of the World: Autumn Brown’s podcast. https://endoftheworldshow.org/

Join us for our next episode, where we speak with Norma Wong (also known as Norma Ryuko Kawelokū Wong Roshi). Norma is a Native Hawaiian and Hakka Zen teacher, the abbot of Anko-in, and an 86th-generation Zen Master. We will explore how she applies Zen and Indigenous values to transformational change in a climate-changed world. Learn more about Norma Wong and her work: https://www.normawong.com/