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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their series on how England won the 1966 World Cup by focusing on the quarter-final against Argentina, presented as the tournament’s key and most controversial test. They explain Alf Ramsey’s tactical preparation, including hiding his 4-1-3-2 “wingless” system and replacing the injured Jimmy Greaves with the more aerially suited Geoff Hurst. The episode traces Ramsey’s lessons from England’s 1964 South American trip, where Argentina’s pragmatic defensive approach and man-marking shaped his thinking, then sets the fraught 1966 backdrop: referee paranoia, Argentina’s internal chaos and recent coup, and a Wembley training dispute caused by greyhound racing. They dissect Antonio Rattín’s baffling dismissal amid language barriers and unclear bookings, the ugly atmosphere, and England’s 1–0 win through Hurst, before covering the aftermath, including Ramsey’s “animals” remark, protests, bans, fines, and Argentina’s defiant homecoming.

00:00 Setting Up England Argentina

01:23 Ramsey Hides Wingless Wonders

03:16 Hurst Replaces Greaves

05:11 Mundialito Lessons In Brazil

09:47 Argentina Pragmatism And Press Reaction

15:43 Referee Paranoia And FIFA Politics

19:14 Argentina Chaos Before Wembley

22:40 Greyhound Racing And Pre Match Tension

26:32 Match Begins And Footage Limits

29:37 Rattin Booking Sparks Flashpoint

33:57 Booking Confusion Builds

35:06 Rattin Sent Off Mystery

38:40 Interpreter Myth Explained

41:53 Aero Bars and Union Jack

45:25 Who Was Actually Booked

46:06 Press Fury and Fix Claims

51:56 Ten Men Battle On

56:01 England Finally Break Through

57:18 Animals Comment Fallout

01:03:17 Bans Fines and Aftermath

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst.

00:00 England Written Off

01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout

04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics

07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny

10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan

15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock

20:43 Hiding the System

22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay

25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout

26:49 Meet J L Manning

28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash

32:24 Mexico Magic Moment

33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown

36:18 France Win And Rotation

39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row

42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity

44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player

50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles.

00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey

01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title

03:28 Ending Selection Committees

05:20 England World Cup Woes

06:50 Dour Yet Radical

09:23 Xenophobia And Origins

14:14 Was 1966 A Curse

17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots

20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments

24:38 Brutalism And Football

27:27 Brutalism Meets Football

31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges

33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy

36:43 Early Results and Doubts

40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check

40:43 Curfew Crackdown

46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine

47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut

53:19 Foundations of 1966

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup.

From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign.

Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football.

With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard?

00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio

06:30 The Myth of Samba Football

13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism

19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma

27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football

31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption

37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis

41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art

47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching

49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off?

52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time.

From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011.

Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition.

With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG?

00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week

06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960)

19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973)

34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994)

42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967)

53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011)

58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962)

01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great?

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Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here...

In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Michael Grant, Scottish football correspondent for The Times and author of Fergie Rises, to tell the story of how a young Alex Ferguson shattered the Old Firm duopoly and transformed Aberdeen into serial winners.

This Episode was recorded before the dramatic showdown on the final day of the SPL season between Celtic and Hearts, but was this just the start of the Hearts story? Will they continue threatening to break the Rangers-Celtic stranglehold for years to come? Wilson, Draper and Grant trace the remarkable parallels with Ferguson's Aberdeen revolution. They explore how a brash 36-year-old manager, fresh from a humiliating tribunal after being sacked by St Mirren, walked into a club that had nearly been relegated two years earlier and forged a dynasty. Along the way, they examine the clashes on the pitch, the psychological scars of Fergie's playing days, the infamous post-cup final rant that still hurts his players 40 years on. Michael Grant reveals the man behind the myth... volatile, funny, manipulative, and utterly relentless.

00:00 Introduction — Hearts, the Old Firm, and Why Fergie Matters Now

06:30 Aberdeen Before Ferguson — Nearly Relegated

12:45 The St Mirren Sacking and the Tribunal

19:20 The Westhill Willy Biters

27:10 Willie Miller and the Power Struggle

34:50 Breaking the Old Firm's Psychological Hold

42:15 Winning the League — 5-0 at Easter Road

48:00 Knocking on Fergie's Door at 3am

53:40 The Liverpool Humiliation

58:10 Fergie's Fury — The Morning After Anfield

01:03:20 Youth Development and Building a Dynasty

01:09:00 The Infamous 1983 Cup Final Rant

01:14:30 Why the Old Firm Were Vulnerable — and can Hearts Can Do It Again?

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the remarkable story of Bert Trautmann — the former Nazi paratrooper who became Manchester City's beloved goalkeeper and an unlikely symbol of Anglo-German reconciliation. 70 years on from the legendary 1956 FA Cup final, Wilson and Draper trace Trautmann's extraordinary journey: from Hitler Youth member and fighting on the Eastern Front, to prisoner of war in England, to the man who played on with a broken neck at Wembley. They examine his teenage indoctrination, the atrocity he witnessed, that shattered his faith in Nazism and the 25,000 protesters at Maine Road. Along the way, they explore the brutal treatment of goalkeepers in this era and how three successive cup final incidents began to change the game's laws. Finally, they reflect on how a flawed, charismatic man became the perfect bridge between two nations.

00:00 Jimmy Ashcroft and the Goalkeeper's Lot

06:30 Hitler Youth — Trautmann's Indoctrination

12:45 The Eastern Front

19:20 Witnessing the SS Massacre

25:00 Captured Three Times — Soviets, Americans, and a Cup of Tea

27:10 Prisoner of War and the Accidental Goalkeeper

34:50 Staying in England

42:15 25,000 Protesters

48:00 Winning Over Manchester

53:40 The 1956 FA Cup Final — Playing On with a Broken Neck

58:10 The Dangerous Life of the Goalkeeper

01:03:20 Footballer of the Year and Personal Tragedy

01:09:00 Burma, Women's Football, and an OBE

01:14:30 The Perfect Symbol of Reconciliation

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