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We Want Them Infected Podcast

We Want Them Infected Podcast

By: Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent
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Our podcast delves deep into the dark side of the COVID-19 pandemic, revealing how influential doctors shaped the narrative. 📖 A Movement in the Making: "We Want Them Infected" isn't just a book; it's a call to action, exposing how the anti-vaccine movement infiltrated mainstream culture. Join us on this journey of discovering the impact of misinformation on public health, trust in science, and more.2023 Social Sciences
Episodes
  • Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, Tracy Hoeg: The FDA Implosion and the End of MAHA's Pandemic Influencers

    Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, Tracy Hoeg: The FDA Implosion and the End of MAHA's Pandemic Influencers
    May 24 2026
    Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent call this week their "Red Wedding": within days, FDA Commissioner Marty Makary resigned, Vinay Prasad was pushed out of CBER, Tracy Beth Hoeg was fired, and Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Louisiana primary. The hosts argue this is not a tragedy but a long-foretold collapse — a group of physicians who built careers as COVID-era contrarian podcasters discovering that running a regulatory agency is fundamentally different from posting about one. Howard works through the wreckage: Makary's reported approval of flavored nicotine products days before his ouster, the FDA's treatment of the rare disease community, the leaked memo claiming pediatric COVID vaccine deaths that career staff refused to sign off on, and the broader pattern of "regulatory whiplash" that drove the agency into dysfunction. The episode then turns to who is still standing — Jay Bhattacharya at NIH, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS — and what Kennedy is reportedly doing to vaccines from behind the scenes via Martin Kulldorff's review effort. Throughout, the hosts return to a single thesis: the skills that made Makary, Prasad, Hoeg, and Cassidy famous during COVID — opinion, tweeting, posturing — do not translate into running institutions, and the medical commentators who vouched for them (John Mandrola, Adam Cifu) have lost any remaining credibility. Key Topics Discussed Bill Cassidy's primary loss and the cost of the Kennedy confirmation vote Cassidy's earlier vote to convict Trump after January 6 followed by his decisive vote advancing RFK Jr. as HHS Secretary. Howard and Orent's view that Cassidy's promise to "keep Kennedy in line" was hollow from the start. What Cassidy's defeat signals about Trump's grip on the Republican base in Louisiana — and the hosts' read that his lame-duck status may give him cover to block the next round of HHS nominees. Marty Makary's resignation and the "worst FDA Commissioner in 25 years" framing The Stat News piece characterizing Makary's tenure, and the reporting that flavored nicotine was the precipitating issue with Trump's tobacco-industry donors. Howard's counterpoint: Makary reportedly approved a batch of electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) on May 5, 2026 — the weekend before he resigned — undercutting the "principled stand" narrative. The pattern of selfie videos, public-facing performance, and what former FDA staff describe as hostile management of career scientists. Makary's pre-FDA record: the "medical error is the third leading cause of death" claim, Omicron as "nature's vaccine," "Omicold," herd immunity calls in May 2021, and the Nazi-bioweapon Lyme disease theory amplification. Vinay Prasad, regulatory whiplash, and the rare disease community How Prasad's stated preference for randomized controlled trials translated into rejection of rare disease therapies — and the disconnect between calling for RCTs on Twitter and the practical impossibility of running them for small patient populations. Right-to-try advocates, the libertarian wing of MAHA (Senator Ron Johnson), and why they turned on Prasad. Howard's point: Pfizer's halted COVID vaccine RCT in 50–65-year-olds is the case study — the trials Prasad demanded couldn't actually be enrolled. Tracy Beth Hoeg, the leaked pediatric deaths memo, and the Maryanne Demasi interview Hoeg's insistence she was fired, not resigned, and her interview with Brownstone Institute–adjacent journalist Maryanne Demasi. Her claim that the chaos at the FDA was "created by the media" rather than real. The memo alleging 10 pediatric deaths from the COVID vaccine that career FDA staff would not sign off on — and Howard's contrast with the J&J/thrombosis response, where nine deaths produced immediate, transparent action. Hoeg's role in the Denmark-style vaccine schedule rollback memo alongside Makary. The Makary–Prasad ZDoggMD clip on FDA "vindictiveness" — and the irony Audio pulled from a pre-appointment Prasad/Makary appearance describing the FDA as "erratic," "capricious," and politically pressured. Howard's read: every criticism they leveled at the Biden-era FDA describes their own tenure — political pressure from Trump, demoted career staff, inconsistent standards. The Peter Marks / Marion Gruber / Phil Krause booster episode reframed in light of what followed. John Mandrola, Adam Cifu, and the cost of vouching Mandrola's "Can We Give the New FDA's Leadership a Chance?" piece a year earlier — and the line about Prasad and Makary inducing companies to run proper RCTs, set against Pfizer's halted trial. Howard's account of an email exchange with Cifu following Cifu's visit to NYU — Howard's offer of a serious content-level conversation, and Cifu's decline. The broader "medical conservatives" project and what the hosts argue has happened to its credibility. Jay Bhattacharya, NIH, and the resignation letter from departing staff The letter from a senior NIH scientist on ...
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    1 hr and 32 mins
  • Nicole Saphier Surgeon General Nomination, Dr. David Morens Arrest, and the FDA's COVID Vaccine Censorship

    Nicole Saphier Surgeon General Nomination, Dr. David Morens Arrest, and the FDA's COVID Vaccine Censorship
    May 12 2026
    Dr. Jonathan Howard (neurologist and author) and science journalist Wendy Orent return for another sharp, unsparing look at the state of U.S. public health policy. In this episode, the hosts unpack the surprise withdrawal of Casey Means as surgeon general nominee, her replacement by Fox News commentator and MSKCC breast imaging chief Dr. Nicole Saphier, and what the shuffle signals about the fracturing of the MAHA coalition. They dig into Saphier's contradictory record — pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 set against more recent anti-vaccine messaging, her supplement business (DropRx), and her now-deleted social media posts criticizing Trump and Elon Musk. From there, the conversation turns to the FDA's blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe, the apparent role of former FDA vaccine office chief Dr. Vinay Prasad, and reporting that FDA Commissioner Marty Makary's job is in jeopardy. The episode also covers a small piece of good news — NIH program director Jenna Norton being reinstated after Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave for organizing the Bethesda Declaration — alongside disturbing developments: RFK Jr. clearing the path for minors to use tanning beds, and the militarized arrest of 78-year-old retired NIH scientist Dr. David Morens. Howard and Orent close on what the Morens arrest reveals about where lab leak conspiracy thinking has led American science and the rule of law. Hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard: Neurologist, professor, and author who writes prolifically on COVID misinformation and public health policy. Wendy Orent: Science journalist and author specializing in infectious disease, evolutionary biology, and public health. Episode Timestamps [00:00] Welcome and Atlanta weather check-in [00:35] Casey Means out, Nicole Saphier in as surgeon general nominee — what it signals about MAHA [01:30] Saphier's role at Memorial Sloan Kettering and her integrative medicine push [02:50] The 2021 WSJ op-ed with Marty Makary: a 10-fold error on pediatric COVID hospitalizations that was never corrected [06:30] Saphier's video opposing COVID vaccines for healthy children — and the framing of myocarditis as a fate worse than death [09:20] Saphier's earlier pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021, and why MAHA now resents her [11:15] DropRx supplements: the surgeon general nominee's tincture business [12:30] Brandy Zadrozny's reporting on Saphier's book and her past criticism of the Plandemic film [13:10] Wendy watches Plandemic so you don't have to: Judy Mikovits and the anti-vaccine machine [14:50] CNN reports Saphier purged posts critical of Trump and Musk before her nomination [15:50] The most disturbing Saphier clip: 'DOGE is one of the greatest things to happen in U.S. history' while telling cancer researchers to 'just pause' [16:50] Harvard's November 2025 finding: hundreds of thousands of deaths from the USAID shutdown [18:20] Good news: Jenna Norton reinstated at NIH after Jay Bhattacharya tried to fire her over the Bethesda Declaration [19:30] Greg Gonsalves on scientists who cooperate with authoritarian science policy [20:10] FDA blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe [21:30] Vinay Prasad: the censorship critic who became a censor [22:30] Why are these people opposed to the shingles vaccine? Howard and Orent on herpes zoster, strokes, and ophthalmic complications [23:50] New evidence: recombinant zoster vaccine linked to reduced dementia risk in adults 65+ [26:10] Marty Makary's FDA in chaos — WSJ, Bloomberg, and Politico reporting on a possible shakeup [28:00] Trump pressures the FDA to approve flavored vapes; ENDS authorization issued the same day [31:00] Makary's interview defending the Replimmune metastatic melanoma rejection — and getting caught in the contradiction [33:30] Who's really driving the FDA shakeup? Biotech investors, not patients [35:30] RFK Jr. clears path for minors to use tanning beds, and what dermatologists are saying [36:30] The arrest of Dr. David Morens: a 78-year-old retired NIH scientist, federal agents, tactical gear, and a strip-search [38:30] Lysenkoism revisited — what the lab leak conspiracy was always going to lead to [40:30] Closing thoughts and sign-off Key Discussion Points The Nicole Saphier Nomination Casey Means was withdrawn as surgeon general nominee and replaced by Dr. Nicole Saphier, head of breast imaging at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and a frequent Fox News medical commentator. Howard revisits Saphier's December 2021 Wall Street Journal op-ed with Marty Makary, which understated pediatric COVID-19 hospitalizations by roughly a factor of 10 because the authors did not realize covid.net data only covered about 10 percent of the U.S. population. The error has never been corrected. Saphier's pre-nomination digital footprint included pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 alongside more recent ...
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    50 mins
  • COVID Misinformation, Scientific Censorship & Public Health Leadership Failures: What's Really Happening in 2026

    COVID Misinformation, Scientific Censorship & Public Health Leadership Failures: What's Really Happening in 2026
    May 3 2026

    In this episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent break down the growing concerns around scientific censorship, COVID-19 misinformation, and the erosion of public trust in health institutions. They examine controversial claims surrounding vaccine studies, leadership decisions at the CDC and NIH, and the broader implications of political influence on public health policy.

    The discussion highlights debates over COVID vaccine efficacy research, the suppression of scientific findings, and the role of key figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in shaping public discourse. The hosts also explore the resurgence of diseases like measles, declining vaccination rates, and the long-term consequences of weakened public health infrastructure.

    From academic freedom concerns to global health risks, this episode provides a critical analysis of how misinformation and leadership decisions are reshaping science, medicine, and public trust in 2026.

    Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print

    The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.

    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

    The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

    The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

    Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

    By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

    Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
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    1 hr and 13 mins
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