Most pastors don’t start ministry wanting to build a machine.

But somewhere along the way, it’s easy for church leadership to become more about growth, performance, numbers, platforms, and pressure… than actually making disciples.

In this conversation with JonMark Baker from the Minor Prophets podcast, we talk honestly about:

• Shepherds vs CEOs in the church

• When church goals become unhealthy

• Why discipleship often gets replaced by performance

• The danger of building ministry identity instead of Christ-centered identity

• How pastors can check their hearts before burnout or pride takes over

This wasn’t a “call-out” conversation, but more of a heart check for all of us.

If you’re in ministry, leading volunteers, serving in church, or just wrestling with what healthy leadership actually looks like… this conversation matters.

Watch the full episode and let me know what stood out to you most.

If you found this helpful, you need to check out JonMark’s work over at the Minor Prophets Podcast. I listen to his show regularly it’s some of the most honest, high-accountability content for leaders out there right now. It will definitely help you keep your Shepherd’s Heart in check.

🎙️ Watch Minor Prophets here: https://www.youtube.com/@MinorProphetsPodcast

📲 Follow JonMark on IG: instagram.com/minor_prophets_podcast

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CHAPTERS:

00:00 – Intro + Why This Conversation Matters

02:20 – Shepherds vs CEOs

04:48 – The Real Goal of the Church

07:10 – When Leaders Build Identity on Performance

10:54 – The Difference Between Leadership and Love

15:25 – Are Churches Actually Making Disciples?

19:50 – Why Mentorship Is Missing

24:51 – Questions Every Leader Should Ask

27:19 – The Biblical Model of Shepherding

32:34 – How Leaders Can Check Their Hearts

35:39 – Final Thoughts + Encouragement

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